On November 29th 2007 Bristol Citys Chairman announced that the club was planning to move to another stadium in the South Bristol area following feasibility studies and gaining planning permission in 2008 by the start of 2011/12. For many the proposition of moving away from Ashton Gate home since it became permanent in 1900 will be a very exciting prospect and it will scare the living Granny out of others.
The proposed site is in the very near vicinity of the David Llyod Centre on the A370 which in theory would coincide with the South Bristol Ring Road linking up to the Long Ashton bypass and massive development being planned for the area.
This proposed move is a monumentous step for Bristol City and if the club get it right it opens a brave new world. If wrong City could turn into new Cack City while fans get to rue the decision for decades.
Despite all of this the potential of Ashton Gate should not be discounted. The very successful rebuilding of Molineux completed in Dec 1993 cost £14 million, took just over year to complete and Bristol City could easily do similar and BETTER, while staying put! Our stadium can be redeveloped to hold twenty eight thousand plus which can be achieved using those plans for a two tiered Williams lying in the Bristol City planning department and by using a alternative design for the East End. This would not cost the sums being bandied about by fans of £30/40 million plus [?], Or the £43 million the 25,504 seater KC stadium cost. The Dolman and Atyeo could still be rebuilt when the club know the extra capacity really is needed.
A New Gate? [26/6/8]
Funding The Stadium
First of all, there is NO inside knowledge at work here and these figures are no more than an educated guess, however our club will be better off with 14,000 season ticket holders handing over an average of £300 each (Guesstimate) when you include Premier Club and remove the VAT. That's approximately £4.2 million. Add revenue from the away fans, say an average of about 1,000 x £25 x 23 = £575,000. Then a wage bill of about £6/7m and another 4,500 fans attend on occasions and we all know what will happen to those people if our club aren't successful, don't we?
So, in plain terms, who pays for the new stadium?
Broadly, it's the same as any other expenditure:
" Supporters (Home & Away)
" The Chairman
" Other Shareholders
" Sponsors
" FA & League Donations
" Sky & TV
" Cup Revenue.
" Transfers
Given Premier League football, a 35,000 all seater stadium will generate around £12m in ticket sales over a season, add about £40million from Sky and there's £52m before sponsors give you a penny, catering, you have a cup run etc, etc. Get relegated first time out and another £12m per season drops into the coffers before a fan walks through the turnstiles or buys a Season ticket, assuming you don't go back up, at which juncture the gravy train starts rolling again.
Some Premier League clubs have wage bills well in excess of that £52m so don't get carried away! However, it is a recipe for survival at least, if not World domination!
Now, Stephen Lansdown is a very rich man, so could he write a cheque for it? The answer could well be yes, however, that probably wouldn't be his choice and, be in no doubt, if Mr Lansdown doesn't want it to happen, or wants it to happen in a certain way, that's how it will be, period, end of discussion.
It "could" be that all four stands would be sponsored over, say, a ten or twenty year initial period and Ashton Gate Holdings would own the ground, not the football club. The ground would be on some kind of leased arrangement, as the football club will only ever use it on matchdays. It will become the West Country's premier sports and concert venue with 30000 + all seated and all under cover.
The ground could even be on a 25/30 year mortgage and that will spread payments to something akin to £135 kpcm + Int over 25 years, based on a spend of £40m.
Thinking outside the box, it could be bought and leased to the club in perpetuity over, say, 99 years, thus guaranteeing that a future owner couldn't sell the ground for housing, factories when both current fans and Mr Lansdown are long gone, hopefully not forgotten!"
The Site
Ashton Gate is not as isolated site as that on the A370, its within its community, close to amenities, close to the Docks and in walking distance of the Centre. Ipswich, Norwich and Wolves have redeveloped their sites and seen significant improvement in Gates. Preston North Ends continued redevelopment of Deepdale also shows what can be accomplished impressively within a confined space and a budget of probably in the region of £15million. If the club are to relocate should it not be for a prominent site within the City not away from it? If the club do move BCFC will be surrounded by vast car parks, probably a retail park, busy roads, flyovers and traffic cutting the club off from its community. Clubs are now realising that the car is not the be and end all, legislation for planning has now put the emphasis on public transport and one of the biggest proposed and exciting stadiums is new Anfield which will result in the ground relocating virtually next door to itself. In ten years time we could look back and actually be jealous of the Gas up Gloucester road if their Pie in the sky La de Da stadium ever gets built. If the New Gate [!!] is not a lot more than just decent that extra walk away from Greville Smythe Park will get longer and less attractive to all in the rain along a busy road on at this point almost non existent pavements.
Bristol City's supporters trust have carried out a thorough stadium survey which reveals a clear picture amongst City fans of supporting the proposition [94.4% in favour]. But of fans not wanting a identikit bowl and favouring something with atmosphere, character, steep stands etc - http://www.bristolcityst.org.uk/trust_news/article000507.shtml
It does seem inconceivable that Bristol City FC will be able to build something to meet the aspirations of fans. We will get pragmatic design if the build goes ahead because the millions necessary to do something different will not be available. Fans will have to downsize their ambitions for BCFC and accept that generally function over form will rule and the stadium will be more of a multi purpose facility, more City of Bristol arena than true traditional football stadium.
Part of the problem of building something with real character is that football stadium design is governed by legislation e.g. Building regulations and Safety at Sports ground act. There are laws regulating seat treads, gradient of seating tier, width of the gangways, number of seats in each block…. The only flexibility here is different gradients, number of tiers and the type of roof structure [straight v curved or External Cantilever v Cantilever with Box Zone …]. There is scope outside of the stadium for aesthetics but it comes at a real cost and will BCFC really be prepared to spending hundreds of thousands on a huge steel mock up of the Clifton Suspension bridge swooping across the exterior then adding projected maintenance costs as well? Pleasing architecture will come second to function. But City's fans have clearly stated that we do not want a bowl like stadium with its maximum amount of seats over the smallest area possible with every facet of the ground utterly rationalised by finance. There are real possibilities which can make our new ground if it happens stand out from the bland mediocrity cropping up everywhere.
Pedestrian access to the site along the A370?
Acoustics and atmosphere
Its ignorant to just believe that moving to a new stadium will also see an increase in atmosphere coupled with the normal initial increase in attendance. It simply does not work like that. Stadium after new stadium has seen previously noisy support subdued by unsympathetic design and acoustics. It would be rash person indeed to suggest that if City move to one of these ubiquitous grounds Bristol City's vocal support not so long ago mocked for how quiet it was [tis true this sorry chaps!] would differ.
Think back to last season at Ashton Gate was there one stand that despite the miniscule numbers within created a constant noise? Away games? Think of the best atmospheres created by City fans then think of the very worst. There should be a clear connection forming in your mind now. Stands with low roofs and often with shallow rakes DO accentuate sound while those with high roofs and steep seating do not in the same manner. Its quite simple sound in the former is trapped and reverberates against surface areas thus amplifying sound. Stands with high roofs and often steep gradients allow more sound to dissipate. Think of the way sound is amplified by cupping your hands together then how it alters when your hands are moved apart because something very similar happens within stadiums.
Most [all even!] new stadiums do not possess the ambience or atmosphere of their predecessors. A new Gate will see the stands at the sides packed with corporate facilities, banqueting and conference suites, fitness clubs, bistros and boxes enough to challenge the CEO for ever. This seems utterly inevitable and with those boxes will be the need for high roofs to ensure uninterrupted sight lines coupled with steep stands to accommodate the facilities on several floors within. But at one or either end of the stadium "excellent" acoustics and the atmosphere that goes with it can be included in the new build. Lowering the roof, flattening the roof design or having separate roof structures can instantly significantly increase the way sound reverberates within that stand and increase sound levels. Doing the opposite and building steep stands with high roofs decreases the stands ability to allow sound to reverberate which seriously effects the acoustics. Even building with materials with high reverberation levels will not rescue the sound quality and defeat physics! There is no need to re build the low pitched deep stands of old as football really has moved on but our new ground can at one end at least have an environment where creating atmosphere allied to a good view is it primary purpose.
Themed stands
Football since the early nineties has undergone a seismic shift with the make up of crowds altering drastically. Bristol City's support is no longer made up of thousands of alpha males but now from a broader spectrum of society. During this shift much of what made football stand out from less emotionally involved sports like Rugby has been lost namely atmosphere. Bristol City could place a clear emphasis on attracting all types of fan to the new build by offering different match day experiences within stands.
To accommodate this it would be easy to allocate one end of the stadium [A New Atyeo?] to families and incorporate facilities within to reflect this and in similar vein more vocal fans could be housed along with the away support at the opposite end of the stadium. Stands to the sides out of necessity would largely house the more monied and those who prefer to watch City from a box rather or a Premier seat.
Put another way families, happy meals and dancing mascot Scrumpy at one end, noisy bouncers at the other and Prawns sandwiches/ boxes right and left. Similar has evolved at Ashton Gate to the clubs and fans mutual benefit so any move should echo what is a very healthy image of BCFC.
Safe standing
Both Bristol City's supporter trusts survey in 2006 and the Stadium survey results reveal a majority of Bristol City fans support the idea of safe standing. This theme is not an idiosyncrasy of Bristol City fans but repeated at other clubs seemingly everywhere.
Why should safe standing be considered at Bristol City's new proposed stadium?
It is clear that there is a demand for a safe standing area within a possible new stadium. Not only does the Supporters trust survey clearly demonstrate this, but so do many others. Despite concerted efforts by the footballing authorities and stadium management to persuade fans to sit down, it is clear that a sizeable number of supporters prefer to stand up to actively support their teams all over Britain.
Lack of standing areas and what some view as over zealous stewarding [Ashton Gate is an exception] is alienating many from the game, particularly (but not exclusively) younger fans, the next generation of supporters. For many fans, football is not merely a spectator sport it is one where they want and need to feel actively involved by the simple action of standing and vocally supporting their club. Fans who sit are quiet and passive. There are no proven reasons why safe standing areas may not be introduced in England; it happens in Germany where safe standing areas can comply with FIFA and EUFA regulations for teams reaching European competitions or stadia being used for Internationals.
There will be a differential in price between including normal seating in a stand and safe standing area. It is not possible to gauge how much a safe standing area would cost due to the refusal of the Football licensing authority to enter into a debate on the issue and therefore organisations like the Football Supporters Federation and Stand Up Sit down have not been able to realistically discuss potential pricing. Ironically, many fans today pay a lot for their seat but don't want to sit in it and stand for long periods. Most do this out of choice. It should not be taken for granted that supporters would automatically expect to pay any less than their counterparts who prefer to sit.
Safe standing areas will become a reality within Britain. The football licensing authorities arguments seem to centre on safety and control of crowds. When the German model of safe standing is introduced into any reasoned argument both these points lack validity. Indeed Trafford Metropolitan Borough Council commissioned a report on standing at Old Trafford. The results of this independent risk assessment were that sitting the whole time presented a low risk of injury, that standing the whole time presented also a low risk of injury but that sitting then standing at moments of excitement (as we have now) represented a medium risk - i.e. it was MORE dangerous than persistent standing!
Herr Volker Fuerderer Safety officer at the Veltins arena [FC Schalke 04]: " In the nearly six years of the existence of the Veltins arena I would go as far to say that there is not a single incident or injury that was caused we would explain with the existence of standing areas". Quote taken from The case for safe standing at major football stadia in England and Wales by the football Supporters Federation.
Arguments against safe standing areas are becoming a spurious nonsense and here is an opportunity for Bristol City football club to work meaningfully with supporters groups and national, organisitions to be at
the forefront of exploring the possibilities. By acting on fans initiatives and desires Bristol City football club can be a respected role model for others to follow.
Stand up Sit Down - http://www.standupsitdown.co.uk/
Football Supporters Federation http://www.fsf.org.uk/
Seating Designs
No dull writing across the seats please lets see an image of John Atyeo across seating in the manner of the designs seen at Deepdale of Tom Finney and Bill Shankly or the impressive [!] above idea for New Anfield. A huge Robin and Suspension bridge at one end and the Crest at the other would contrast vibrantly against red seating, would not cost the earth and create a real focal point when the stands are empty unlike the lettering currently displayed across the Dolman stands blocks.
Roof structure
Bristol City's fans have expressed a dislike of "soulless generic bowl" like grounds. A bowl in essence is a stadium with a roof structure and single tiers of a uniform height. New developments that are in fact separate stands are still often maligned as soulless bowls because of the uniform design of roof which does not fluctuate in height.
Building a new stadium where the roof structure undulates or is of separate heights adds character to a stadium and eases that monotonous feel to the eye of too many new grounds.
A uniform continuous roof structure is less expensive to build but City fans again have expressed a desire to have a new stadium with excellent acoustics. It is inescapable that good acoustics come from a grounds roof design. Having stands where the roofs are of different heights can/WILL have a massive impact on improving acoustics and quite obviously the wish for a stadium with atmosphere. Bristol City spending more money on design that is sympathetic to creating atmosphere would give fans a huge opportunity of avoiding the "dead stadium syndrome" apparent around the leagues.
A good example of a stand not being the same height is Anfields Kop which merges into its neighbouring stands. Despite being shorter in height than the adjacent Centenary stand the Kop is still the focal hub of the ground full or empty! A similar updated stand in a New Gate would not be so soulless, atmosphere less, wasteful or shabby would it?
The Suspension Bridge! There are already ideas circulating where part of the roof is suspended by a structure mirroring the Suspension bridge. A alternative idea could be to support the entire roof of differing heights on towers [Masts] via a 'suspension cable'. This may sound very conceptual but towers could support the structure which would reflect the ship masts of Bristol's maritime history. This idea which could take on a abstract form would be utterly unique and be appropriate to Bristol's heritage. In terms of cost, there is no reason why this sort of design should cost much more than a conventional flat pack style ground, if a good design team is employed. It's still steel, concrete and glass - just formed in more imaginative ways.
Roof fascias
If you can face it browse through the internets football ground guide and have a look at how mundane and incredibly boring the fascias of stands really are. Ashton Gate does have stands at least with interest to the senses with its boards stating "THE MICRA WEDLOCK STAND" and the Atyeo with its exposed framework. Most grounds struggle to go beyond insanely dull ribbed metal roof fascias with the odd advert. Lets have flags hanging down proclaiming " PRIDE OF THE WEST", another scoreboard, the club Crest at one end and an image synonymous the Robin and Suspension bridge at tuther reinforcing that this is Bristol City fc! How about signs running the lengths of the roofs proclaiming " THE JOHN ATYEO STAND" or " THE EASTEND BY THE FANS FOR THE FANS"? It won't cost anywhere near some of the highly conceptual ideas put forward will e.g. a roof attempting to mirror the Suspension bridge.
footballgroundguide - http://www.footballgroundguide.co.uk
The New East End
If acoustics and atmosphere are to be appreciated and designed into the new ground; the stand with two names (East end/ Micra wedlock stand) must be in the club's and fan's thoughts. This stand, even when 70% empty, constantly generates a good atmosphere in comparison to other stands at the Gate, which have considerably higher fan to capacity ratios.
In short, there won't be a new East End in any new stadium! It's pretty hard to think of anything built recently that shares the same characteristics as our Cow Shed. The East End is essentially a low roofed shallow terrace with seats bolted to it and its closest relation, minus those pillars appears to be Oldhams purpose built "all seated" Rochdale road stand built back as far as 1992. Quote from the Football ground guide - "The facilities in this newish stand are fairly good, as are the acoustics" http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/park/yfh45/oldham.htm
Taking part in what makes the East End distinctive and transplanting it into another stadium is a possibility, but it's necessary to have an understanding of why the stand works on certain levels:
Possessing a low roof means that sound is trapped in a limited space, and this sound then reverberates against surfaces thus being amplified while being pushed out towards the pitch. This is known as reverberation time [RT]. Coupled with a shallow rake the stand has exceptional acoustics: Football ground guide : "The acoustics of this stand are excellent, so even a small number of away fans can generate some noise" - http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/park/yfh45/bristolc.htm.
Increase the height of roof or steepen the gradient of seating and the stand's ability to amplify sound is diminished, as sound will dissipate. The intention was never there when it was built, but even the sheet metal used to construct the Eastend's roof has a high RT.
Many new grounds have a sense of amphitheatre rather than traditional football stadium about them, all bright and shiny, huge cavernous spaces lacking in intimacy, detaching the spectators from those around them. Like it or not the East End does have an ambience about it when you walk in, it feels confined and it's indisputable even to the fair minded that it retains (even with seats) important qualities absent from the ubiquitous bland constructions springing up everywhere.
Looking around the Championship and above there are stands that can be used to provide a rough benchmark and combined with our East End's traits result in a very happy medium. Wolves' South Bank and the Jack Harris stand, or Preston's Alan Kelly and Bill Shankly stands are surely within a realistic Budget for BCFC.
Now imagine Wolves South Bank pushed forward imposing itself almost up against the goal but with the stands sides overlapping so that the corners blend into the stands at its sides in the fashion of the Kop as mentioned earlier. The South Bank provides a good parallel as a club like Bristol City would be able to get near to filling a perhaps slightly larger stand on a regular basis. As this stand would be built with creating an atmosphere as one of its basic purposes the congenial setting for the vocal even when half empty or worse would almost guarantee that constantly expressed desire for atmosphere.
This Eastenders vision of football utopia would:
Primarily be a environment built with the specific purpose of generating atmosphere thus helping to provide the positive vocal support called for by Gary Johnson.
Have unreserved seating throughout the entire stand.
Be a single tier of large blocks of seating creating one bank of singers instead of pockets over two tiers.
Have a low slung roof to maximise sound.
Become a safe standing area when it becomes a reality.
Possess a shallow gradient but steepened enough to provide a good view without appreciably affecting acoustics.
House the away fans in the corner of the stand as banter is a part of football distinguishing it from other sports.
Include Perspex [high RT] to use as screen ends or an alternative to fencing [IF it is necessary] giving the stand a more intimate feel and again increasing sound enhancing qualities.
Have space incorporated in the stand for supporters groups to display and store flags and banners.
Provide facilities for supporters to meet before and after the game, enjoying locally produced Cider and West Country fayre!!
An investment in the future
It is not in Mr Lansdowns practical nature at all to take risks with the clubs financial stability but the clubs future should include very tangible acknowledgement to our past, the emotional involvement we as fans have for the club as well as the spread sheet if we move alongside the A370. The overwhelming majority of City fans appear to support the club moving but judgment could well be clouded by dreams of the unfeasible.
To come to a informed conclusion City fans need much more information on how transport links will be improved [train station?], how much money there would be to build the stadium after site preparation, how the build will be financed, what is planned for the adjacent environment …… Bristol City will not have anywhere near the amount of money Portsmouth have for instance to build a new stadium and appoint Herzog and De Meuron to design it. So there needs to be further extensive consultation taking place with fans. With the fans free expertise Bristol City can still have an iconic stadium with supporters being truly brought into the concept. This would see a New Gate that is a representation of Bristol City to be proud of for decades and an investment in the future.
New Stadium!
After all our input we have ended up with a bus stop style design behind the goals?????
so what now??
As i have been made aware through a few emails and been told that the continuous concourse round the New Stadium is an integral part of the design. It is also probably necessary because of the nature of the land on which the stadium is being built(as i've been told).
Now this design could be the compromise for the New Home End which could be split at concourse level, thereby keeping the concourse, but still looking like one mass of fans plus the nice visual look of a stand.
Bristol city fc new stadium design say no to new bus stop style stands
